It's on Rambling Update from March 8.
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Flo finally gets equal time.
This blog is about kindness and respect - willing yourself to extend grace to others even when you don't agree with them. Kurt and Pam write here.
James 4:5
And what he gives in love is far better than anything else you'll find. It's common knowledge that "God goes against the willful proud; God gives grace to the willing humble."
Flo finally gets equal time.
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willful grace STUFF via Cafe' Press
53 comments:
Wow....I just skimmed the exchange. Truly sad.
Though the imp in me almost regrets missing the whole thing until after it was over. ;)
Wow, I skimmed them as well and am glad I didn't enter the fray. I guess I don't have enough controversial keywords in my posts to get many anonymous comments but if I started getting an exchange like that I might stop the anonymous ones too.
Can we all just relax for a while and talk about recipes? You know what I've never known how to make but I just love is those cookies that are like ginger snaps, but they don't snap. You know the kind I mean? They're kind of mushy and they have sort of this gritty brown sugar quality to them? Somebody here must know how to make those things.
Hey..I'd love that recipe myself. Maybe Inheritor will come back...he's shared great recipes before...in fact, I wouldn't mind him posting the egg roll recipe here for us.
Great idea Kurt!
Kurt, are you by any chance talking about molasses crinkles??? I used to own a bakery and have a great recipe if you are interested!
Recipes...what a good idea!
Oh! Oh! Yes! These cookies have molasses! It never occurred to me until you said that. Molasses crinkles. So that's what they're called! Yes, I definitely want the recipe.
I have a great recipe for yam muffins. I know it sounds revolting, but they taste good, and it's a great way to sneak some vitamin A and fiber into your unsuspecting children.
It's a little something I call "stealth nutrition."
Yams are awesome! Would love to have that one.
Let me dig up the molasses crinkles from my recipe box and I will post it for you.
Is it cool to post it here, or do you prefer I email it to you? I think Pam has my email address.
Oh by all means, let's post our recipes here where we can all enjoy them. I'm also planning on sharing some ideas I've been kicking around for Pam's upcoming stage show. Pam, you're not allergic to marabou, are you?
Okay I found it!
3/4 cup shortening
1 cup brown sugar
1 large egg
1/4 cup molasses (I prefer the flavor of organic)
2 1/4 C. flour
2 tsp. baking soda
1/4 tsp. salt
1/2 tsp. ground cloves
1 tsp. ground cinnamon
1 tsp. ground ginger
Cream shortening, sugar, molasses and egg together.
Sift remaining ingredients together and slowly add to creamed mixture. Chill dough for at least one hour (easier to roll into 1" balls).
After dough has chilled, preheat oven to 375. Roll into 1" diameter balls or I use a cookie scoop. Dip the tops of the balls in granulated sugar and place on a parchment lined or lightly greased cookie sheet. Sprinkle each ball with a couple drops of water (this is what makes them crinkle!).
Bake until just set, about 10-12 minutes.
Do not overbake or the cookies will be crunchy, no chewy in the centers. Once removed from the oven as with any cookie or baked item, it is still baking until it has cooled.
Hope you enjoy this recipe...it was my grandmothers and was a top seller in my bakery.
Oh...this makes about 30-36 cookies. I divided the original recipe that made 120. Had to bulk it up in business!
hmmm. Looks like you basically reopened the comments up here. I mean, why disable them if you are simply making a written invitation for your new best friends to bring on the snark in the big announcement post? Whatever.
if you really want to close it down, why are you telling everyone to skip on down and read it? Why...so they can continue to comment in the new post? The topic change to cookies reminds me of my kids when they don't want to do something, they change the subject. Or if I am getting no where with them and they are escalating I will just distract to something trivial to defuse the situation. Guess you didn't like what I had to say. Guess the gays only like to "dialogue" with bible believing Christians that they can muzzle into feeling that they are nasty, intolerant haters if they don't enable their sin. Love it when "tolerance" simply turns into intolerance for anyone who disagrees with you all. "Dialogue" is BS because its a way to say that no one can really tell the truth, only what people want to hear. So much for the verses about "iron sharpening iron"...what was that verse about people wanting their ears tickled in the last days??? This is just one big tickle fest in here.....
You people have managed to bully everyone else into accepting YOUR way of life...I just read today a woman was told she couldn't be a foster mother because she refused to teach her kids that homosexuality is just another lifestyle option. She wasn't mean about it, just not willing to cave into the politically correct powers that be. Where was the outcry about "not enough loving homes to go around"? Oh, I forgot...that only counts if you are trying to cram acceptance of your sin down everyone elses throat. It isn't across the board. I was also incensed when I applied to law school to see people "encouraged" to share their "coming out stories" in their law school application. I was told it wasn't the place for airing one's personal dirty laundry. I even heard it hinted at that in the right hands, being gay would gain you extra points with the ad com committee. Can we say "reverse discrimination boys and girls"? I was told, only partly tongue in cheek, by another law student, that with my grades and LSAT scores, that if I were a black lesbian, I would be a shoo in. But as a straight white chick (women in law are so passe now), I would be one in a sea of many equally qualified candidates.
Yeah...angry..you know why I am angry...is you idiots have hijacked everyone else into fearing legal repercussions if they so much as say one peep about your sexuality being sinful. They can bend over backwards to be kind, nice and respectful, but if they don't kowtow to your political agenda, then they get punished. So much for "democracy rule" The few have bullied the many here in America. And here we have Pam, former evangelical Christian, just swayed in. Why? Is her life so empty without a man that being a fag hag is better than nothing? Sickening. Just sickening. And, uh, I wonder just WHY her son is acting out? After hearing right and wrong he is in an environment where he is probably being muzzled into saying the politically correct words about accepting his fathers lifestyle as a glorious thing despite what he may or may not be thinking and feeling. I have heard about some of these adult kids of gay parents and what they say, uncensored, is very different from what they say on the smiley face PBS special where there is pressure to say the PC thing. (I meaN, who wants to be labeled a vile hater by their own parents?) When you consider horribly abused kids will return to their abusive parents out of "love"; is it really so surprising that kids of gay parents feel very pressured to say the politically correct thing when the spotlight shines on them?
I posted about it so that those who weren't subscribed to the comments could see another point of view.
That's honestly the reason.
Thanks for feeling comfortable enough to share your anger here. It really is okay with me, even if you think it's not. I'm being sincere. I'm certain you have things to say that I need to hear and I'm listening. I wouldn't put my story out there and open comments at all if I didn't believe it was important to hear all sorts of points of view. This just happens to be the first time I've experienced someone with your tone...but hey...like I said, there's a first time for everything.
I'm perfectly fine with you voicing your opinion in my comments. I'm not crazy about the name-calling, but if that's your preferred mode of operation, who am I to judge?
continued love and grace,
pam
Grace, you're a delight. Keep writing...
Mark and Kurt,
Didn't mean to ignore your banter up there...I in and out with the boys for a bit this evening.
Mark...you're awesome for sharing the cookie recipe. I know how you bakery and specialty shop owners can be with these sorts of recipes...even when you're no longer in business, these things are not usually easy to let go of to others...so really...thanks!
Kurt...I'm not allergic to maribou,but don't you think my coloring would be better highlighted by the ibis?
Why thanks, nnr!
whatever. You know, Jesus was not all love and acceptance. There is also the side of him that hates sin. Mercy and judgement. Can't have one without the other. Don't know why it works, it just does. I seriously doubt you are interested in what i have to say. This will be my last post. I did want to add that my husband and I helped a guy years ago who wanted out of the lifestyle. He went back. I recently found his website. if one were to read his story, one would feel sorry for this poor poor guy and how he was "abused" by the church for "coming out". There is only one problem. I was there and what happened was nothing like what he reported. The guy is a liar. When you try and justify your sin, you lose a grip on reality and what "really" happened and what you would like to THINK happened. Sorry..thats what I see with these people. It is one thing if someone does not claim to be a Christian. It is another when these people are smearing Christ's name by claiming to be followers of His whilst embracing what is clearly stated as sin. Liars. As far as I am concerned, I don't believe a word of what comes out of the mouth of a "gay Christian" because of the convoluting they have had to do both with scripture and with what actually happened in their own lives to remain in denial about the dichotomy in their lives. I have read enough about the claims they make about ex gay ministries. The reality is, that while they have room for improvement, the "gay christians" come up with stuff that for the life of me, I don't know where they got it. Liars. Liars who want to justify themselves. But hey, if being a fag hag makes you feel better than standing for the truth, more power to you. I don't have to stand before God about it, you do.
"I seriously doubt you are interested in what i have to say."
Well, I am interested and I've been listening. I can't make you believe it if you don't want to. Either way, thanks again for sharing some more of your story.
And yes...you're right, I'll have to stand before God on my own. That's my true motivation.
love and grace,
pam
Apparently anonymous is very sure that she has not broken one part of the law (or has never read James 2:8-13). By the way, has anyone writing blog posts here ever said that the homosexual sex act was not sinful?
No Inheritor....those particular words haven't been written in an up-front post. But apparently I was way too dangerously close to saying as much in that Rambling Update and in my association with so many other sinners. Imagine the firestorm if I HAD actually declared it holy. I'm pretty sure (making assumptions here) that there's more to it than just that one thing. My affiliation with XGW seems extremely troublesome as well. One of the writers there is a lesbian Jew. *yikes* We really don't spend any time over there trying to convince one another about theological issues (i'm talking about the writers)...we mostly point out abuses, lies, and inconsistencies within the ex-gay movement. My next article is an opinion piece on the hateful rant of Sally Kern, one of our representatives here, in which she compared gay folks to terrorists and accused public school teachers of indoctrinating children. How's your indoctrination going there up North, by the way? ;)
Also...think about this for a moment, Inheritor....how would you approach me here...were I to stop pondering and simply declare homosex good, right, and holy? Would it look anything at all like what we've seen in the past two days?
you know what Pam, the way you respond reminds me of when one spouse says "yes dear" to the other, all the while continuing to do whatever it is that was brought up. It also reminds me of what my kids have called me on myself when I am pretending to be concerned about what they are upset about with me and I am just trying to shut them up about it by feigning an interest in their viewpoint. Or companies that pretend interest in what consumers have to say so they can't be accused of not doing so when they have absolutely no intention of doing a thing with that. "thanks for sharing" Etc etc...I realize that its hard to see what someone really means in written word as opposed to face to face: but that is the way it comes across. And this TRULY is my last post. If you think that my problem is with your hanging out with these people, that is not it. What I wonder about is why you have gone into THEIR forum and from your own words you appear to have been gradually wooed over to their side. Change is possible. Because it doesn't usually happen with the magic wand approach that so many evangelicals claim (not confined to other types of change either...I hate the 700 club testimonies because they always make it sound like whatever happened overnight and they gloss over the struggle and pain and doubt...makes you wonder what is wrong with YOU that whatever your issue is is so hard to get rid of)and because some people choose to walk away from the hard road, does NOT mean that the truth changes. I have chosen to change my life, my beliefs to fit scripture, not the other way around. If something is not working and contradicts scripture, I figure the problem is with me and how I am going about it, not the expectations of God. I notice Mr Deflector in here asking me if "I" have ever messed up...well...duh....I also know enough about counseling (since a close family member is studying to be one)to know that people often deflect to the other persons issues when they don't want to deal with their own. and as a trained debater, I can smell it when people are employing tactics to get out of what the point really is. If I remember from my logic and critical thinking class..that is called a red herring. i strive to live biblically. While part of that is treating people with love, that love also entails telling the truth. It does not mean twisting the meaning of the word "love" to soft peddling the truth so as not to put someones nose out of joint.
Do I get credit for getting your nose out of joint?
I also know enough about counseling (since a close family member is studying to be one)
Gotta love expertise by proxy. ;)
That actually sounds like a great cookie recipe! It almost makes me want to try my hand at baking. Almost. I'd have to clean the oven first. And that thought just gives me the willies! ;)
-- Jarred.
Seriously...
I'm just not a debater...at ALL. And now I see that you were trained in it...well..there ya go. We are pretty different in our core make-up as to our personal gifts and talents. I really and truly and listening to you. That's pretty much what I do. You will not find very many instances at ALL across the internet where I ever get into a debate. I just don't do it. I listen and respond sometimes...but...even here, you just don't see me doing that. I promise it's not something I'm just doing with you. I do that with everyone...all the time. I truly am sorry if that comes off as offensive. I do like to discuss things but I'm not into debating things point by point. When you post a super long thing with a bunch of stuff in it...honestly...and you can ask my ex-husband about this (not that you would)...it used to drive him crazy....I will really only respond to the very last thing you said. He used to send me these long emails with stuff that needed to get done for the day...and I'd get like only the last one or two things accomplished because I would get really lost in the whole big thing.
I really am sorry that you feel that way...that I'm not listening. And it doesn't matter how unpatronizing I tell you I am...I can't control the tone you put onto my words.
I'm sorry you are not going to continue to post. I do encourage you to blog because you do have alot to say.
love and grace,
pam
ok...one more thing...
for real...
how do you think I got myself into all this questioning in the first place?? I really DO listen. I swear. I'm listening. I've been listening to everything you've said and I really do think about it.
Suddenly I'm rife with ideas and thoughts...
here's the deal, you came here with stuff to say. and i believe, honestly, that all of our encounters serve a purpose. i absolutely am willing to think about all you've said...in fact, i've been thinking about alot of it for some time and even though i cringe at the way you present it and all the name calling (it almost seems like you don't like me)...well...i know that there's something to be gained.
are you in the least willing to admit that there might be something to be gained by you from coming here? even if it was just to shore up your own belief system and vent it all out for this little part of the world to see...i mean...can you find anything at all redeeming about this place and this "exchange" we've had?
I hate to see you sort of come and go in such a state of *huff*. There's really no need for that. I promise.
don't anyone get too excited, i'm not the anonymous who has been posting here. i'm another anonymous who has been fortunate enough to know Pam in real life. i have known Tdub all my life and Pam since they got married. i actually knew her in 1st grade b/c she was the really pretty teacher everyone wanted, but i didn't get.
anyway, i just want to say that i have been reading all these posts and honestly besides some name-calling on the part of anonymous (seriously, fag hag?) and assumptions about why her son is having trouble (children of heterosexual parents aren't saints), there is a lot of good, open discussion here. you really should start a blog or find some way to vent your frustration with Pam's approach. your first post should be titled "why i know exactly what God means in the Bible" and i'm honestly not being sarcastic. so much of it is left uninterpreted for us and i want to know how you have come to have such a clear understanding of it all. it's good to discuss these things. you have strong conviction in your beliefs and so you will make a great "poster girl" for your cause. what i don't think you understand is that so many people are driven away from the church because of people telling them what they are doing wrong and so they will never know about the salvation that God offers. how can you know if you're not there? and how can you be apart of something if you aren't welcomed into it? i agree with what you say about people in the church needing to be more open with each other and holding each other accountable. sin is a daily struggle for everyone and you're right, not something we can fix over night regardless of what our sin of choice may be. i do also think that most homosexuals know how the church feels about them so having one more person come out and tell them that their life is one big sinful mess won't help. i don't want to speak for Pam, but i think that's why she has chosen the "love and acceptance" approach because what else can you do? chastise, condemn, remind them daily how sinful they are??? they know, as we all do, that we are sinners caught up in a mess and are completely lost without the GRACE that God offers to us.
i would just like to encourage you to start a blog and send us the link.
you know...when my husband was struggling I would see these ex ex gay sites and it was devastating to think he might go back. Now that we have moved on, I happened to find your site, years later because it linked from something else. I read it because I was curious. I googled you after reading your site. Its just my little research addled brain on a relentless search for the truth. Not what feels good: the truth. If my exchanges in here have done a single thing it is to firmly commit me to biblical truth. For a while there I had wandered into the "emerging church" camp that is convinced that ministry is all about soft peddling sin and that we "offend" people by even mentioning that something controversial is a sin. shoring up my own beliefs makes it sound like I really don't believe the bible and need ammo. No. Seeing the evasive tactics of these gays in here..the way they deflect with a smartass comment when you can tell something hit the mark...that is very telling. Since this is my husbands issue, I have had a passing interest in it. Its not my issue. Truth be told, criminal behavior fascinates me. And i have found some real interesting parallels in criminology with homosexuality. As far as biological components of sinful behavior go; the whole nature vs nurture thing. Which begs the question: even IF there is a biological component: so what? Do we excuse murder because some people have an inborn propensity for aggression? Um, no. None of these guys is interested in anything that would refute the comfortable niche they have found for themselves. If there is one common thread I have seen with all the gays and ex gays I have known, it is a feeling of alienation from one's peers. Even among people who externally appeared to fit in, you talk to them awhile and that feeling of alienation comes out. Personally I think a lot of the strident gay militantism comes out of the fact that these are people who not so deep down felt invisible as children, for reasons often unrelated to sexuality, and now that they are adults, they have found a way to force themselves on everyone, like it or not. America is a democracy. That means majority rule. Yet despite the fact that polls show that most Americans are at the very least uncomfortable with gay marriage...these people have twisted language and found loopholes to set precedents which are then used to force everyone else into accepting their lifestyle as "normal" or be punished. If I am a landlord and I am not particularly comfortable renting to a pair of open gays because I really don't want this going on in front of my young children, then I risk being sued for "discrimination". A lot of people have gotten out of the rental business for precisely this reason. I can see the day coming where as it is in Canada, pastors have been jailed for "hate crimes" for speaking out against homosexuality. really...saying homosexuality is a sin is akin to Saddam gassing the kurds or the Turks wiping out the Armenians (don't get me going on that...our "hate crime" sensitive government won't even acknowledge the Armenian genocide because they want to suck up to Turkey....)
Back to homosexuality...yeah....I am angry that like it or not...we all have to dance to the homosexual agenda or be punished for it. So much for free speech.....
What angers me even more is "gay Christians"...with unbelievers...really one can't expect regenerate behavior out of unregenerate individuals. BUt "gay Christians" CLAIM to know Christ, they CLAIM to follow the Bible...except that rather than fit their struggle into scripture, they have fitted scripture into their struggle. Rather than decide scripture is true and have the faith that since God is who he says he is and the Bible is God's word, then there is a biblical reason why they are still struggling, they simply twist scripture into something practically unintelligible to remove the struggle. What the bible says about the Christian life in general is in contrast with what a lot of American Christians have been led to believe: come to Christ and he will fix all that is wrong. Like no one would come to God for the joy of knowing God....they come to God because they are led to believe that God will make them the person they always wanted to be and make them happy and fix their problems. More than anything, I think this shift in purpose for the Christian life has led to all kinds of trouble, with acceptance of homosexuality at the top of the list.
Why would I waste my breath with people who are not interested in it and make smartass deflections because all they are interested in is justifying their own sin? As for you Pam, there is only so far nicing it up with people will take you. I think you may believe that if you are just nice enough and non judgemental enough with these people it will do something. Um, no. My experience has been that with people who are determined to continue in a life of sin, they want you to ignore the elephant in the living room and just carry on business as usual. They like you because all you do is listen and you keep your opinions, unless it is an opinion they will approve of, mostly to yourself. You tell them what they want to hear. You keep it sufficiently vague that no one has to feel convicted or uncomfortable. This is not love. I am not sure what it is, but it isn't love.
*hugs* to 2nd anonymous commenter...i'm *pretty* sure I know who you are and I miss you!!!
I am going to be in Granbury in May...for senior banquet...any chance of you being around at that time???
anonymous #1...*sigh*
I'm really only nice to you because I feel that way about it. For real.
There's no amount of times I can say the same thing and you believe it...and I'm sorry, for obviously offending you with the "shoring up" comment.
I really do wish you'd consider your own blog because these little comment threads don't get your words out there nearly as much as if you had them on your own front page. You know, I was anonymous as a blogger for 2 years...and it worked for me.
Again...I'm afraid all of that will sound patronizing to you. I sincerely wish we could meet and talk so that you'd know that I mean it when I say that I'm listening and that there really are people who just want to be kind and respectful to one another. I apologize for the smart ass comments. Apparently that offended your tender sensibilities yet again. Oopsy.....there's my sarcasm slipping out. See how human I am?? Anyway...for real. You've got a ton to say and I'm still listening to all of it.
here's an honest question...why is it okay for you to get to call names and use sarcasm but when anyone else does it, you get snippy about it? i really, honestly don't get that. i actually enjoy humor and sarcasm even at times when it's used against me...just cause i enjoy it...
other anonymous. The problem with your approach is that a really good number of these people are claiming to already BE Christians. You have a radically different approach with nonChristians than with people who are claiming to be believers. I agree...with nonChristians the first thing they need is to know Christ. But when people are believers, if they expect other believers to only tickle their ears, then there is something seriously wrong.You know, the iron sharpening iron thing. And gay Christians want their ears tickled. Further, if you read the gospels, once people were in relationship with him and trusted him that even when he asked them to do things way out of their comfort zone, that he had their best interests at heart....after that, he was VERY vocal in challenging them about their behaviors. Obviously there is discernment here. However, when it comes to XGW and others like them on the web, what you are dealing with is people who have made up their minds and do not want to be confused with the facts. They put a lot of energy into discrediting the entire concept behind biblically based ministries. This is not a "consumer reports' type of thing of how they could do it better and what the failings are: no, this is simply saying that the very IDEA of a ministry designed to help people overcome SSA struggles, whatever form that might take for the individual; is in the wrong. They could do the best job in the world and these people would still try and find the one screw up so they could bash the entire concept as "hate". I would further add that some of the broad generalizations that they make about ex gay ministries are simply untrue. They have issues, some of which i find problematic as well..but these are more along the lines of the way they go about things. Some of the stuff though, I think is just flat out made up. I have, for example, NEVER heard of an ex gay ministry using electroshock conditioning. This was used by secular shrinks in what, like maybe the forties? Back when they were still freely lobotomizing a lot of mentally ill people as well. But this doesn't stop Wayne Besen and friends from saying that ex gay ministries have engaged in this practice. On a more subtle note: I have read a lot of ex gay literature in my day and over and over I have seen or heard them say that heterosexuality is not the goal and marriage isn't for everybody. Yet ex ex gays would like to cling to the truth that becoming "straight" is their goal, when I have repeatedly seen it explicitly stated otherwise. In recent times I have seen a real shift towards growing in holiness as opposed to some endpoint where one is said to have "arrived".(one is in trouble when they think they have "arrived" whatever their struggle..I think that is called pride) I have also seen a real shift away from thinking that getting guys to play softball or girls to wear makeup is where its at. Not feeling like they fit the gender stereotype is what started a lot of these people's problems in the first place. Having it reinforced by the ex gay ministries would seem to drive them further into the lifestyle. I would like to see more emphasis that we are all male or female and that the gender stereotypes are cultural constructs rather than a God given mold we should all pour into. Am I gay because I am better at fixing stuff than my husband? Am I gay because most of the time I am too lazy to wear makeup and only wear a skirt if some occasion demands it? Uh, no. My very hetero son wants to learn to sew (I am a quilter and he thinks it looks like fun) By telling kids "boys don't do that' or "girls don't do that"...you actually can set up the very feelings of gender alienation that can lead to homosexuality. Even with the most loving parents in the world..if somewhere along the line a kid picks up the idea..I don't do boy/girl things, therefore I am fundamentally different from others of my gender, you can have a root for homosexuality right there. Then they meet a few gays who are not so rigid in what boys and girls are "supposed" to be like and now they think they have found their "people" because they finally feel like its Ok to be themselves. Add some early sexualization, either through abuse or simply viewing a lot of the images of our culture and its no wonder some people feel more comfortable amongst gays than straights. Reparitive therapy could be so much more effective if it was more aimed at deconstructing an individuals thought process that led them to gayness rather than assuming and pouring someone into a mold about what "must" have happened in their childhood. Generalizations are just that. Two adults can have the same dysfunctional behavior pattern for two very different reasons. As a wife of a recovering sex addict, I cannot tell you how many times I read materials that assumed I must have been molested because, statistically, most women who marry sex addicts have been. I even had one individual tell me that I must just be repressing the memories because if I hadn't been molested I would not be married to a sex addict. No doubt these kinds of nutty statements are made to SSA strugglers as well. But you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We are all individuals and people just have this nasty way of not responding in a rote fashion. But because the early ex gay ministries may have had some serious faults in their methodology, it does not logically follow that the concept of homosexuality as a sin which can and should be dealt with, is flawed.
maybe i should start my own blog. I have been toying with the idea ever since I didn't get into law school because I gotta do something with my life. If i was to fill out an employment blank on a survey, I would put free lance writer in there. But that entails putting out content and I have been trying to figure out how to do that. I am so turned off by "mommy bloggers" and frankly, I feel that blogging about your kids violates their boundaries. I am appalled at the people who use their kids as fodder for their blogs. And putting up a blog with crafty content...I don't know..that's just so..unchallenging. I don't feel a need to photograph my hobbies and document them. I am not sure that I ever visualized something exclusively devoted to homosexuality. Like I said, its not my issue, its my husbands. I just get upset in general about the way the left bullies the rest of us into taking their agenda OR ELSE.
As for the sarcasm....I think it disturbs me when it is used as a way to dodge an issue. Humor is a great deflector. I have done it myself. Turn something into a joke or make a flip comment when you really don't want to think about something someone else has said. Its not the sarcasm itself: its the use of sarcasm as a way to minimize someone else's very good points and deflect off of your own denial. Re: namecalling. I object to anyone who opposes homosexuality being normalized being labeled a "hater" not because I can't pull up my big girl panties and take it, but because it is a very loaded word, specifically used for the purpose of silencing said "hater". The words "hater" or "bigot" or "homophobe" are used not in the way usual namecalling is, but are intended to make the recipient feel ashamed at displaying such negative traits as what the namecaller would like to believe is "hate". The purpose is to shame the recipient into believing that to continue to hold fast to their opinion means they are a bad person and thereby shame and manipulate them into coming around to the namecallers way of thinking.
I was actually referring to you calling me names. I don't recall that anyone here has called you any names. Where is all that stuff about "haters" coming from???
*yikes* i'm right in the middle of writing a new post about the boys.
I am sorry for calling you names. But what else would you call a woman who deliberately seeks out gay men? Perhaps because I became a Christian after years in the world (and working in the restaurant business which is very heavy with gay men, especially where I lived on the east coast) I was well familiar with the phenomenon of straight women who had an inordinate amount of gay male friends that they hung out with. This was beyond the coworker that "happened" to be gay or the neighbors that "happened" to be gay. It was a pattern. One they consciously or unconsciously sought out. And the slang term for that was "fag hag".
I do find it a bit odd. After all, these are the people whose lies wooed your husband away from you. In your shoes, I would be having a hard time saying something civil to them, let alone cultivating their friendship. Is it perhaps all you have left of your husband? It just seems sort of odd.
No...believe it or not...I just really love people. I've even come to care for you during this time you've been writing here. I prayed for you last night...which, again...i fear you think everything I say is facetious. It's not. But...I was just wishing that I could give you a big hug. I know how difficult your journey can be.
I have friends from all walks of life, actually. These gay ones are just a little blip, believe it or not. Some of my best friends are 4 years old (soon to be 5).
I honestly...really and truly...just love people of all sorts. My situation just happened to attract several gay men to reading what was going on here...and the next thing you know, they were my friends.
oh...and i'm sure this will sound like the most cornball thing in the world...but...i'd already forgiven you for calling me names before you did it. you also called me an idiot at one point...(lol)
as far as answering "what else are you supposed to call a woman like me?" i'd probably just say that maybe you should just not call her a name at all...maybe just "Pam" or "friend" if possible. Although, I can imagine a setting in which calling me a fag hag could be perfectly appropriate and even humorous. It was all mostly in your tone that made it mean and ugly.
okay...I will take it at face value. However, like I said, I might wonder about THEIR motives. I know that gay activists just glom onto any failure of ex gay ministries as just more "proof" that gayness should be embraced as holy and granted the same protective status granted to racial minorities. I would not be at all surprised that even if on your end it is a genuine friendship that on their end, they are using you. Maybe not even consciously. But I bet if you were blogging more definitively about your husbands sin being sin, if you called it what it is, backsliding; that they would be singing a very different tune.
This may surprise you, but I am all for Christians befriending all sorts of people. And not with an "agenda" because people can smell that a mile away. Of course I think that should probably happen naturally or then its like some politically correct types i have known who have black friends so that they can pat themselves on the back, not because they met someone they genuinely liked who happened to be of another race. HOWEVER...XGW is not a casual social networking site. It is a site with a very specific social and political agenda..that of discrediting the entire concept of the ex gay. I would be very careful about discussions IN THAT FORUM because of the agenda of the group. If those very same people were interacting with me in a different context, it would be a totally different kettle of fish. Yet again though, you do have to keep in mind the difference between a nonbeliever and someone who self identifies as a Christian. By their claiming to be a Christian, they have opened themselves up to a certain lack of neutrality in your dealings with them.
well..here's the funny thing...
i haven't made one NEW gay friend since the divorce....these guys that have been hanging around here (and girls...i do have lesbian friends)...have been doing so and became friends with me back when i wrote a bunch of stuff about homosex being sin...before i started questioning this stuff....and really...i'm not so much questioning the behavior as sin so much as the way they go about getting redeemed...
i'm just pretty sure that redemption is for all and i question whether or not sin has more to do with what's in a person's heart than what is actually happening on the outside...so...i do believe that there are gay Christians.
anyway (and aren't you proud of me? i'm actually discussing a point...which i'm MUCH better at if we take it down to one simple thing at a time..i'm just HORRIBLE at this big long things full of so much loaded stuff)
I guess i was saying all that to say that no one came over here and befriended me AFTER I started letting them into heaven (lol)
they befriended me even when i was sending them to hell.
I take that back....Mark&Patrick and I have become friends since the divorce...but we have common bonds that I can't/won't share as to the impetus for our friendship...still nothing to do with sin or salvation...just some common experiences.
I do find it a bit odd. After all, these are the people whose lies wooed your husband away from you.
You know, anonymous (#1, obviously), this may well be the most outrageous, offensive, and downright anti-Christian thing you have said. The suggestion that Pam should hold TDub's decision to embrace his sexuality and leave their marriage against us is ridiculous. We weren't the ones who made the choice. Yes, I might certainly agree it was the right (though tragically unfortunate) choice. Gay people around him at the time may have even encouraged him to make that choice. But they did not -- and could not -- make the choice for him. That's something he had to and did do for himself.
That'd be like having a husband who drinks too much and constantly blaming it on his drinking buddies.
Honestly, whatever happened to personal responsibility?
Yes, Jarred...you are right. And, this is where the approach of anonymous (or one area) and my approach to the whole thing differs a great deal. I never blamed any other person or group of people for Tdub's choices....or even for the fact that he is gay in the first place. Being married to Tdub made me more, not less compassionate toward all those who've ever had to struggle with their sexuality. Even for those who accept their gay identity...it's a struggle. Most gay folks would have taken the straight pill YEARS ago if it had been made available to them.
Also...I do have this to add...as to the nature of my friendship with all these gays around here *wink*...well...the fact that I'm perfectly comfortable not arguing back with you...allowing all your comments to stand, as is...of their own merit with no argument...that says alot about how much I do trust the friendship of so many of my readers. We all know and have always known that we just don't DO that here. It's never been the way of this blog. There are THOUSANDS of places where you can go and get your debate on. This just isn't one of them.
I do love thinking and discussing. But I do that sort of slowly. I'm not a rapid-fire thinker for the most part. Not a debater. I like to mull stuff over and ponder it. I don't mind having a bunch of things standing here in my comments that really and truly are quite offensive to me and alot of people who read here.
I actually sense that many of them have probably bitten off a few fingers in their attempts to stop themselves from joining into this fray.
It's just not about that. And it's really and truly not some secret agenda to change the world or indoctrinate everyone with homosexuality. It really and truly is just me thinking out loud, telling my story, and making some friends along the way.
I rarely even link from here to anything I write at XGW.
Jarred knows (i know he knows) that I'd prefer not to turn these comments into a boxing match of words. I hope you will be civil to him. He is my friend.
well Seithman...I think if I had lost my husband to meth...I would be angry at the meth dealers for encouraging him, even if it was just by passively having their evil wares available. I honestly do not know how she can stomach friendship with someone who would label his sin as "embracing his sexuality" and say it was "the right decision". I am not talking revenge or anything. I just don't think in Pam's shoes I could muster up more than a passing "hello". If you can believe that amorphous forces out there are "homophobic" by their exclusion of practicing gays and lesbians, then I think it is totally fair that those who would label Pam's husbands choice to embrace his SIN, as something good....can and should be labeled as somehow implicit. In the same way that drug dealers are. Yes, he is a big boy and made his own choices. But those who are out there saying c'mon, just give in, its not a sin anyway...are, in fact, part of the problem. I used to be a bartender. After becoming a Christian, I couldn't do it anymore. I knew too many people who abused alcohol. I do drink and think in the right context it is OK..but the whole bartending thing just felt too much like aiding and abetting addicts. I know it is not a perfect analogy.because alcohol, unlike homosexuality, is not always sin,but if you would encourage a struggler to "embrace their sexuality" rather than fight the Christian fight, you are part of the problem> You may not have encouraged Pam's husband specifically, but if he was sitting in front of you asking your opinion, you and I both know exactly what you would say to him. Friends do not encourage friends to sin.
Alot of my gay friends were extremely angry with Tdub for choosing to break
our marriage convenant, and while I can't speak for all of them...I'm pretty darn sure a bunch of them would have advised him otherwise on the grounds that it was a committment, and the boys were not grown. I did get a few emails (and one phone call) from some of them who literally wanted to come out here and kick his ass. Believe it or not, there was no partying in the gay streets or a commemorative float in the pride parade when he left me.
I find a couple things curious about your response to me, anon. The first is your immediate assumptions about who or what I consider homophobic. I don't think I've ever even said the word "homophobia" or any of its derivative words on Pam's blog. Similarly, I find it curious that you brought the idea of revenge into the discussion. I certainly never said anything about revenge.
Please don't project your preconceived notions or issues on me. On the whole, I'd say they don't apply.
As for what friends do or don't encourage friends to do, I'd simply point out that I consider neither loving nor being attracted to someone of the same sex to be a sin. You may take issue with that, but I'd politely point out that it's your issue to deal with.
Pam,
A situation like yours and TDub's is always a sticky one. I'm one who takes vows of any kind, including wedding vows, extremely seriously. Indeed, one of the greatest pieces of advice in my faith is to give your word sparingly simply because you will be expected to keep it.
However, there are those cases where one's word -- no matter how carefully and sparingly given -- must be broken. It's tragic, and never a pleasant experience for anyone involved. In those cases where one must break one's word, one should do everything humanly possible to act as honorably as possible. (And yes, that often means trying to pay appropriate restitution to those who were let down.)
I would encourage you to read more carefully Jarred. I was referring to PAM and how she might feel towards people who had influenced her husband. I was saying that some people might be fighting that vengeful feeling and acting in vengeance would not be right. But I was also stating that I didn't think I could muster up more than a passing "hello" to someone who represented a philosophy that had taken my husband from me. It had nothing to do with you. Or is reading things rather uncritically the way you have rationalized to yourself? I googled you and was appalled at the ease with which you have rationalized your sin and rejected Christ. In an amazon book review, you said basically that following God wasn't worth it to you. Overcoming sin wasn't worth it to you. Fine. You did make a choice to embrace and seek out your sin instead of fighting against it. Many people have read oversimplifications of change and simply plugged on despite that, realizing that an oversimplification on the part of one writer doesn't invalidate the concept. For someone who is so smart with computers, you appear to be a bit challenged in thinking things through logically. Perhaps because your own immediate comfort is far far far more important than any truth that might make you uncomfortable. The Christian life is not easy. Jesus never claimed it was a bed of roses. Jesus said it was struggle, no matter what a lot of TV preachers say. It is a shame you could not have dug deeper instead of assuming the path of least resistance. Your blatant misinterpretations of my own statements lead me to think that perhaps you see what you want to see to justify yourself and your choices. All you folks who have dismissed Christianity just have that victim feeling coming out of your pores. And after what happened with my husbands friend, I take the "stories" of ex ex gays with a ginormous grain of salt. I realize that what may be a pathos inducing story on the page may in fact not have happened like that at all. People have a way of twisting the truth to rationalize their own actions.
anon #2 again, this is my second blog post ever and i just think the spirit of this blog as a whole has been great. i love reading everyone's ideas and i think we all agree that the point of blogging is putting ideas out there and hearing other points of views so this has been really interesting in that respect. anon#1 i hope that you can at least admit that Pam has a great way of allowing everyone to throw around their ideas and keep the convo going despite how easy it would be to just say she had had it with your opinion. i'm with her on the debating thing. i find moderating to be a better seat. i now understand that your "beef" is with ex gay watch which i am totally unfamiliar with and won't even begin to try to address. i decided to make my first blog post EVER in the history of the internet because i felt you were unnecessarily ripping into Pam and i got a little defensive about the "tone" you took with her. again, i see now that your issue is with ex gay watch and so i have no response to your response to me except to say that i have long held the opinion that if you are a christian you are responsible for yourself. these "gay christians" however hypocritical YOU may find them will one day stand before God alone. they will not be able to say "well Pam told me i was ok." the church is great in that it allows us a group of people who will hold us to a higher standard, but whether we choose that higher standard falls on us as individuals. i think you are of the opinion that we have to hold each other to higher standards until that person chooses to jump up to where we are, which i've heard all my life and have never totally grasped. i can't make someone else believe what i believe because i haven't been where they have been. i don't know what it's like to go my whole life and be told that what feels normal to me is not okay. without getting too far into (and by that i mean taking out the argument that as Christians we shouldn't tolerate homosexuality. it's too late in the day to go there) i just find it sad when people leave the church. that's it and that's all.
I think it could be fairly said that sin of all stripes feels natural to all of us. I am not a believer in "tolerance". "Tolerance" is basically about muzzling anyone who holds an absolute view. There really is no such thing as "tolerance" because those who propose "tolerance" are in fact INTOLERANT of opposing views unless the person is very namby pamby about it. But be sure of yourself and not afraid to speak the truth..and then you are a "bigot".
Homosexuals act as if they are the only Christians that have some serious heart rending struggles. It is victimology in the extreme. Christians of all stripes have stuff that is life changing, long term struggles. Very few of us get the "magic wand" effect.
Wow Anon#1....should you read my next post at XGW (not that i'm recommending it, certainly) but...it's quite a bit about tolerance. I, of course, have a very different view of tolerance and what that implies than you do. It's odd that you bring that word up since I actually began writing the piece the day before you started commenting here.
I just think it means we treat others the way we want to be treated. I realize you disagree. And, obviously, as a tolerant person, I'm good with that.
I truly don't follow your line of thinking that those of us who are tolerant are actually intolerant. Is it that I'm not into debating with you that makes you think I'm intolerant? Because I can't think of anything else I've said or done that would give you that idea.
Ok....now...I realize this is probably going to tick you off immensley...but I'm going to start moderating the comments.
Not because I don't want to hear your ideas...but because even though I've been okay with you calling me names and saying disparaging things about me....well...I just can't take you doing that to my friends. Specifically...your reply to Jarred. I'll copy and paste here for you the parts that I can't abide you doing. Notice..I'm not saying it's everything...just the parts that fall into the realm of personal attack...I'm even willing to allow you the parts where you actually researched and have something to back up what you are saying about him....but when you go out on a limb and just bodly slander him with your opinion.....well...I just can't allow that...
here are the places where you did that
"For someone who is so smart with computers, you appear to be a bit challenged in thinking things through logically. Perhaps because your own immediate comfort is far far far more important than any truth that might make you uncomfortable."
and...
"All you folks who have dismissed Christianity just have that victim feeling coming out of your pores."
now...I'm still being quite generous there. But if you're going to discuss things you're going to have to leave off these sorts of statements about folks. You've got PLENTY of other negative stuff in there that you found without adding your assumptions about him based on your generalizations.
You can even go ahead and say this proves I'm intolerant...when really, it only proves that I care about kindness and respect. Again, we have obvious disagreements as to what that looks like.
At this point...I think I'm going to have to also insist that you provide some sort of authentication when you post. You're getting close to saying some pretty dangerous things, even to just me. And even though I'm aware of your little town in Idaho, it might be better if there were a bit more accountability from you as there is from pretty much everyone else that's been in the discussion so far.
As an aside, my Amazon.com reviews are available here. I believe the specific review that anon was referring to was for "Coming Out of Homosexuality" by Bob Davies. I point this out because I feel that anon's summary of my review is itself oversimplified to the point of being not entirely accurate. I can certainly understand why someone might disagree with my review as well as the conclusions I came to, but I would hope they'd give a more attentive and thorough discussion of my points rather than calling my motivation and/or character into question.
I will also note that ad hominem attacks are generally considered a poor substitute for actual debate. ;)
-- Jarred.
Pam -
I'm now home from visiting my son, and it is late. I want to say I'm here to support you, as well as to stand as another wife who was married for almost 33 years, and my husband came out as gay at about the 30-year point. I, too, believe in showing love, and trying to listen when people are hurting and trying to express themselves.
I certainly feel that the "anonymous" commenter has felt the pain of someone she loves struggling with SSAs, and it has left her with many negative feelings toward gay people. I do not feel that way.
My experience has been that those who grow up in fundamentalist churches hear time after time that their feelings (of SSA) are wrong, sinful, shameful, and will damn them to hell. Unfortunately, this opinion does nothing to change the SSAs and it does EVERYTHING to cause depression, separation from others, and a hiding of one's true self and feelings. Psychologically, emotionally and spiritually this is damaging. Many attest to this condemnation, and while it might make some [straight people] in the church feel "biblical" or spiritually more pure, it is the kind of teaching that leads to lies and secret behaviors - and sometimes to taking one's own life.
While I am sure that "anonymous" will object and disagree, this awful result is not what the God of the Bible wishes. I find it overwhelmingly true that Jesus came for us all - to love, live and to die - in our place, for sin. Let it not be called sin that which is centered around the love of any two people. Rather, may we be judged for what we do to share with others that Jesus really did come to us ALL - with no conditions and no exclusions. Furthermore, there is nothing we can do to make Jesus's sacrifice more valid, nor can we do anything to make it less so.
There is more that could be said, and perhaps what I've written isn't clear enough or very thorough. It's late and I'm not into arguments. My point is that I have always loved my husband. His coming out to me did not change this. I could have chosen to be bitter or angry towards him or any number of people. Instead I listened to him - and I believed him when he said he had done everything in his own power, in prayer, in sacrifice, and in our marriage, to lose the SSAs that he'd always had. Rather than require him to continue to pretend that he was straight, I agreed to divorce the only man that I've ever loved.
To you, Anonymous, please listen to your spouse - he may be still be pretending, alone, and struggling.
It is late - I'll close.
Carol
Pam - Hello. I hope you are doing well.
I read your blog often and I am glad to hear everyone is doing great.
Sorry that I do not comment often enough.
but I did have one thing to say in regards to this...
I don't think people realize the love that Jesus has and that is sad to me.
I hope you have a great day.
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