Sunday, March 25, 2007

Me and Tdub

Some may wonder, actually many often do and ask me, "Do you ever talk to Tdub?", or "What's your relationship like with him now? Do you have much of one?"

The answer is, "yes". Tdub and I remain friends. We are in touch at least once a week and usually more because of the boys. And, we really talk every once in a while, maybe once a month or so. We chatted for about 30 minutes online just today. He is doing well. The main topic of our discussions when we have time to really get into serious conversation, like today, pertains to spiritual sorts of matters. My biggest concern is his soul and that he tend to it. He didn't leave the marriage in a very graceful way, you see. It was very sudden for me, happening literally overnight through the course of an all-night discussion. By that time, he'd already "left" but hadn't gotten around to letting me know. He's apologized, sincerely, and I've forgiven him, sincerely. But, the fact that he left so suddenly, without "due process", so to speak, means that he left in a pretty horrid state spiritually and even emotionally for himself. He just didn't give it the time and effort it deserved, even if he'd ended up with the same decision, which he probably would have; he could have made it happen in a more appropriate way. These are things we've discussed, and it's okay between us now as far as being able to have a relationship as friends.

He says he holds me in the highest esteem. He seems most regretful of the fact that he doesn't feel he ever really loved me the way that he should have. I'm most regretful of not being more honest about some other issues not related to his sexuality that I should have been more open about. I had been very miserable living in the old house with all of it's issues for a very long time. But, there were always so many other things to tend to that I sort of pushed all of that back and allowed it to discourage me to the point that I would "escape" to the blog or to reading or other pursuits when I could have been more engaged in the family life. Oh well. It's all water under the bridge now. That's honestly the way I feel about it. Is that horrible?

There's more I could say, but I'll leave it for another post. I have a script to finish writing for a youth drama we're doing at church.

love and grace,

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QUASAR9 said...

Oh well. It's all water under the bridge now. That's honestly the way I feel about it. Is that horrible?

We cannot BE what others want us to BE, and we cannot expect others to BE (or act) as we'd like them to BE (or act).

But we need to forgive ourselves and let go ...
and we need to forgive others and let go ...

resentment and revenge never made anyone happy, it just made them bitter, selfish or sarcastic

No Time for that, if you want to fill your life with joy - and for sure everyday there will still be plenty to try and spoil your day!

But that is life!

Pomoprophet said...

You like that quote too? isnt it a good one! I had heard it but then seeing the movie made it even more magical. Its kinda scary to think He's not safe because I want Him to be. But I guess we'll have to settle for good!

Peterson Toscano said...

A script? Theater? What did I hear? You got my attention.

Pam, thanks for sharing your life so openly. You model for other women in the same situation one way in which they can proceed with dignity and honesty. Very needful as I get e-mail two or three times each week from women who know or fear their husband may be gay or no longer ex-gay. I often send them to ready your site to learn from your journey.

Ally said...

Oh well. It's all water under the bridge now. That's honestly the way I feel about it. Is that horrible?

I don't think so, Pam. Feelings are feelings, not facts (so they can't be tested for accuracy) or value judgments (so they can't be assigned values themselves). They reflect what's going on in the heart-mind-spirit, and that's why they're useful. Regret can be one of the most useful of all.

I'm glad you and Tdub can continue to relate as friends. I'm so very distant from your situation, but it seems that as friends you can make up for what sounds like sort of a messy "ending" and build something that's a firmer foundation for this new phase of your family's life.

(Sorry if this comes off as overly "pastoral." I guess I just wanted to say I think you're doing a great job!)

grace said...

quasar9: Thanks for your comment...I checked out your site but my head started hurting as soon as the page loaded! ;)

pomo: you'll be getting hits from using that quote from now on...funny, huh?

peterson: well, you know i don't propose to have all the answers, very few, in fact...but thanks for your continued support and for letting other women know that they are not alone....that knowledge is a great comfort to you when you are in the middle of the situation.

ally: not overly pastoral at's the sort of post that sort of begs for that kind of response. thanks!

love and grace,

kurt_t said...

Pam, I think you're really an inspiration to anybody who's ever been through any kind of life-altering grief.

I remember that first post that indicated that there were some serious problems, the one about the little girl in your car who could tell that you were in so much emotional pain. Remember? This was maybe one post before the "It's Over" post.

I remember I identified so strongly with what you said. I felt like I'd been there. Like I knew just what it felt like to be Pam in that car with that little girl.

I think that's the hardest thing in life is to go through some devastating experience of loss like that. Loss of child, spouse, friend, relationship. I think it can feel like your whole life is gone, but you have to keep waking up every morning and living it anyway.

I think that is your gift, Pam, at least in your capacity as a blogger, is the way you show others how to get through that loss and forgive and heal and get back to living.

You are a blessing to a lot of people, I think.

grace said...


Wow. Your comment blesses me so very much. And yes, I still remember the wise words of my 4 yr.-old friend..."Ms. Pam, you know God can see right through your skin." I can hear them, and often do, and they comfort me. I believe with all my heart that Jesus spoke directly to me through her that day. God is SO very faithful!!!

Thanks Kurt. You've been hanging around here almost as long as Brady and you are dear to my heart.

love and grace,

Greg said...

We can only make our own choices and I'm so refreshed to hear you be intentional about your relationship with Tdub. You speak of him with words that give life, this is strong encouragement. Whatever words I speak, may they be of life.

Often in difficult times, I feel as though I'm watching myself. I don't so much feel that I am me, but I'm watching this cruel situation happen. For me, it's connecting those pieces and allowing restoration.


Jay said...


You truly are an inspiration, you know that? If everyone had even half of your honesty and your humility, the world would be such a different, wonderful place. I am truly blessed to have found your blog, and I pray the best for you, Tdub, and your family.


grace said...

Greg: Thanks for sharing your perceptions, I've felt like that many times as well.'s's getting INSIDE the stuff you feel like you are watching....really living it out to it's rightful conclusion, or more likely, the transition that step is providing to something yet to come... doing that enables us to heal and move forward.

Jay: You bless me as well! I'm still pretty rotten...sometimes I get really proud of how humble I am.....*sigh*.

love and grace,

em said...

Oh... just had to chime in on this one. For a person who teaches writing skills, you should know that the title to this post should be "Tdub and Me". shame shame! ;-)

Jamie said...

But, the fact that he left so suddenly, without "due process", so to speak, means that he left in a pretty horrid state spiritually and even emotionally for himself.

I am afraid that this is how my wife will feel. What "due process" is there that would make a difference? I don't ask that lightly, I'm just wondering if you know of anything. I've only read a few of your blog entries, but right now I feel like an earlier version of Tdub. I identify as gay, and I do feel like the end of the marriage to my wife is inevitable and it breaks my heart. I wish there was some way to make it easier, but I don't see a way.

Thank you for your writing. I will likely send my wife the link to your blog as I am sure she can identify.

grace said...

The fact that you're taking the time to ask around about how to go about it is part of "due process" in my book. I haven't looked at your blog yet, so I don't know your situation yet at all. But, "due process" for me would have been even knowing that he was struggling so mightily at the time and being able to talk our way through that before he'd actually met someone to be with in my stead. Does that make sense? It wouldn't have made it a great deal easier but it would have been more respectful of the friendship and trust we did share.

Does that help? It really floored me that someone who'd put so much time and effort into living as a Christian hadn't even put two thoughts together as to how to justify what he was doing. He even admitted that to me, and it was shocking at the time.

Thanks for reading. I appreciate your thoughts and feelings. I'm certain your take on things could be helpful to me as I continue to process things. I look forward to hearing more from you and possibly your wife.

love and grace,

Jamie said...

Hi Pam,

I haven't really blogged much publically about this, so you won't find too much on my blog.

For some things regarding "due process" I am too late. I was unfaithful. And I never came clean to my wife until she actually questioned me. So I've already made a lot of very hurtful mistakes, and sometimes I think the wounds to our relationship are too deep to heal.

I haven't sought out a relationship, though I have sought out gay friendships now. In some ways that is harder, but if I leave because I am gay, I don't want it to be also because I've found another man to have a relationship with.

Still, all of this is very hard for my wife and I to talk about. She is still hoping I can change, and has given me a couple of books on the process (Coming out of Homosexuality is the one I'm halfway through). It's difficult, because I've already been through the years I thought I could change (though not in any formal ex-gay program...I sure did a lot of quiet reading on the 'net, though!). So I am reading them because she has asked me to.

I have now accepted that I am gay, and I am at peace with that. It's hard for me to accept that my wife won't accept that, but then I have to step back and realize the years it took me to come to a point where I would even admit to myself that I was gay, and then years more to be okay with that being a part of who I am.


grace said...


My heart breaks for your wife, and for you. The fact that you were unfaithful is so typical in these situations, and, as strange as this may sound can even be part of that "due process" I was talking about. It was the fact that he formed the friendship outside of our friendhip, which took it's place, which was far more hurtful to me than any sexual affairs could ever be. So, while I certainly don't affirm or condone your extra marital affair, I see what you are doing and the way you are dealing with your wife as quite different than how it was with me. I may sound like I hold bitterness against Tdub but I don't. Well, I'm sure there's a bit, I AM only human....but...I do continue to WILL myself to show GRACE to him and so you won't see me spouting off about that latent bitterness publicly.

I volunteer as a writer at Ex-Gay Watch. There's a 3-part series I wrote there that you should read. You can find it by clicking on "Former Ex-Gays" in the side bar then scrolling through those articles. They are best read in order and part one is titled something like "what I've learned."
You have to click to the second page of that listing to get to part One.

Hope that helps. Feel free to email me if you'd like to keep going with our discussion.

love and grace,

Jamie said...

Actually, ex-gay watch is where I found you in the first place (though I'm having trouble finding Part I...I read Part III though.)

I don't affirm or condone my extra-marital stuff either. I don't beat myself up over it (anymore), either. I do wish that I had come out of my own accord and before having crossed that line in our marriage.

That said, we probably would have both been unsure as to how real my gayness was if I'd never acted on it. That doesn't exuse anything, it's only an observation.

I hope that through it all my wife and I can rebuild a friendship, though sometimes it seems that we will sacrifice that too before this is all over.